Re-Energising and Re-Focusing Your Leaders

With many workplaces returning to remote and hybrid working, how do you keep your leaders energised and focused on what matters?

This session will provide practical tips and strategies that you can immediately implement to recharge your leadership teams - and the rest of the organisation. You will learn how to: 1. Positively energise your whole workforce 2. Equip your leadership teams to thrive in uncertainty 3. Build structures for high performance in any scenario 4. Stay focused and engaged through times of change

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Karlie: [00:00:07] I say, okay, we'll kick off just as those last few people are coming through. So good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for joining our session this morning. Today we're going to be talking through re-energizing and refocusing your leaders within your organizations. So what we'll cover. We'll look at some of the key challenges in keeping teams energized and focused on what matters. How to equip your leaders to thrive in uncertainty. How to build structures for high performance in any scenario. And staying focused and engaged through change. That's my pre-COVID self, believe it or not. My name is Karlie. I'm the managing director of DLPA. We're a leadership consultancy. And what I'd like to do today is share it with you a little bit about what we're seeing on market and what we're seeing work quite well in the in the current circumstances. So just the housekeeping before I move on. Actually, we're on Zoom. I think most of us are fairly familiar with Zoom at this point. There's a chat and a Q&A on on your taskbar there. I won't be engaging with that as I'm going through the slides, but there is a Q&A at the end. When I'll go through any of the questions in there. So if anything comes to mind as we go through, feel free to drop it in there and I'll get through as many as I can in this session. And if your question is more complex or not covered in that, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. And we can workshop through some of your challenges and opportunities. So the current challenges that we're seeing for modern leaders in the present market, we're seeing a lot of hybrid and fully remote teams. Which have really changed the team dynamic that's actually in play in organizations. Work occupies fundamentally a different space in our lives that has changed what employees are looking for from their work environment. And it's also changing what employers really are seeking from their workers as well. That whole dynamic and social contract is really has changed and is continuing to evolve. The most common thing that we're seeing on market at the moment is a sense of exhaustion and change fatigue. Now that materializes in different ways in different organizations, but there is just generally a sense of a little bit of downward pressure on energy that it's been a fairly full on period in history, and people are just generally a little bit tired and not quite sure about the way forward. In Australia we're fortunate enough to be in economic conditions which are quite favourable for a lot of organizations. But what we're seeing that create is this hyper competitive marketplace. So we see that in many divisions of organizations. One is obviously talent, that there is hyper competition for talent and depending what industry or niche you're in, that can be quite profound. But also in terms of strategic direction of organizations, we're seeing that it is fundamentally a very, very competitive marketplace at the moment. People are hungry for business, they're hungry for growth and it's just making it quite, quite a high intensity marketplace in most industries at the minute. And talent shortages are leading to people working outside of their traditional skill sets and generally being overloaded. Um, you know, part of that will be a function of where, you know, businesses come to us in terms of their life cycle. But certainly what we're seeing is that because there are talent shortages, recruitment landscape is what it is at the moment people are being required to do things that traditionally. They haven't been doing and potentially they don't have that much experience doing. And that on top of that, they're tending to be asked to do a little bit more or it's been experienced as being asked to do more. And so there is a feeling of overload and that is creating a quite all those factors together create quite a unique environment in which to attempt to lead. And so the key question and obviously why you're all here today is how can you keep your leadership team engaged, energized and focused? This is absolutely the most common question that people are coming to us with at this moment. So a quick poll question. For you folks at the moment, just so I can see where the organizations on the call are up to. How is your organization currently working? Is it 100% physical, 100% remote or a hybrid? A mix of those things? We're seeing a lot of people return to 100% physical. We have some brave souls who have gone 100% remote. And in hybrid, certainly from our experiences, probably the most common. We'll just have that question up for a moment more. One or two people to just select their answer. 


[00:06:01] Perfect. Thank you all so much. So, yes, we can see that. Absolutely. Most most of us on the call are in a hybrid environment. So a little bit from home, a little bit from the physical workplace, whatever that is, or indeed hybrid can also be that some of your workers are 100% remote and some of your workers are 100% in the physical workplace as well. So we're seeing a lot of a lot of different, different options on market at the moment. And no one 100% remote on the on the call today. So that's fantastic. So just before going into the broader content, I did want to talk about how leadership development is changing on market at the moment. That we are seeing a little bit of a shift in what organizations are wanting and indeed what what your personnel are wanting as well. So generally speaking, leadership development now is less focused on trade, so less focused on like personality type traits. And more focused on mindset. So we're more looking at, you know, grit and resilience and how can I get my mindset right to deliver rather than what are my personality preferences. We're seeing a conflation of hard and soft skill training. So. Historically, we have more seen that people do the hard skills training. So, you know, finance 101. Communication is often or elements of communication are in there and more technical things and then your soft skill training in separate streams we're seeing that really conflated at the moment. So having those trainings occur at the same time and certainly in our public trainings we've done that, we've merged our management courses with our leadership courses. And the reason for that is it's you get to implementation much quicker. So when, when you're learning the hard skill and the soft skill at the same time, people are tending to get a little more immediate uplift in terms of implementation experience. Experiential learning is central. That's been the case for a while, but now it really has become mandatory that there is that academic understanding of these concepts, which is still important and still has its place, but that experiential, what does it mean for me and what am I going to do differently? Element of the learning is just absolutely key. It's just it's about behavioral change now, not just knowledge set. It's much more participant driven. So we use the top down where directing this is what your leadership program is going to look like and what you're covering. There's still elements of that because it has to have ROI, but participants are taking a much more active role in determining scope and mode and duration and things of that nature. And leadership really is developing beyond a job description, which I'll talk about that a little bit bit more as we go through. But it's not just, you know, skills gap analysis, again, still important, but it's not just that. It's about development beyond the immediate outputs of my role. And I think that that is really important for organizations to engage with that that element. Fabulous. So keys to an energized workforce. From our perspective, there's a lot of them. These are kind of the key ones or the pillars that would really be pointing you towards. The first one is purpose. And now purpose can be like a really big concept where you're, you know, you're talking about life purpose or as an organization you can talk about CSR or you can talk about those guiding principles and values and can be big, but. Which is important. But it's also important to hook into on this day right. Now, what is my purpose? What function am I serving? What is the key thing that I'm going to achieve? That it's not a motivating thing to be a lemming and sit and do something that you cannot see connected to, to a reason. And so purpose is really important and in the big sense and in, in the micro sense as well. GEM principles so Hugh Van Kahlenberg at the resilience project has done a lot of work around this and we see it in schools we also see it in corporates coming in. Now there's different different frameworks that point to the similar points, which is embracing gratitude, empathy and mindfulness. So there's you can Google Hugh's work there's a there's a lot of free online. Happy to send around links if you like. But just adopting those practices and having your supporting rather your leaders to adopt those practices of gratitude and empathy and mindfulness is so important to that leadership mindset and getting yourself in a position where you're someone worth following. Really. Structures for efficiency are also really important that if as an organization you are asking people to do more, or if they're experiencing that they're being asked to do more, people are a little bit stretched. You need to make sure that things are efficient because when people are engaged in inefficient processes. They are fundamentally going to be demotivated and have a lower level of energy. Because their perception is going to be that so much pointless energy is being expended on what they're trying to achieve. So structures for efficiency is really, really important. Meaningful feedback. So the 12 month review, if I can put it that way, whatever that actually looks like for you, that formal structure of review has fallen out of favor. I believe it still has a place that formal review still has a place. But that easier flow of feedback, that dynamic flow of feedback in a meaningful way quickly. So when the thing has happened, so if it's great performance or it's not so great performance or anything in between, that the feedback is happening as close to. That behavior as possible and that it's that it's informal and it's helpful. And that it actually means something to the individual. And it's not just that's not the best thing you've done, for example, but actually talking about this is why that's not great and here's what we'd like you to do. Meaningful feedback is really important. And also remembering to do the feedback about great performance tailored people, management or development plans. The one size fits. All just won't work. It just won't work for you or it won't work as well as a more nuanced approach could. Employees now really want to be seen as individuals. They want to be more than than a job description. They want to be more than. These are broad generalizations, of course, but they want to be more than just a widget output that having the capacity to tailor the way you manage an individual and tailor their development plans in the way that they're engaging with the organization and to a certain extent, the way you give feedback as well around preferences and around the skill and will matrix. So where they which quadrant they they sit on for what they have, the skill and the will or deficient in one or the other that you're implementing the technique that is going to work for them and that you have flexibility to do. That is going to be more energizing for your leaders and more energizing for their team. Positive narrative. So there's been a lot of work around, you know, positive psychology and the benefits of that. Shauna Core and Michelle. Gillen have done a lot of more formal research around the benefits of of that. And I think that it's had some bad press in in the past because some people have implemented it in ways I think it wasn't intended, but. Through COVID and then workforce disruption. And we've got wars and we've got floods and we've got. There's a lot of bad news. There's a lot of bad news. And the, you know, fear around inflation and all of these things. Hooking into a positive narrative is really energizing for people. You need to find the good news stories. And it doesn't need to be rah rah good news stories. It's just focusing on what is the motivating story that I can tell, what is thet hing that I would like people to be hooking into? Do I want them to be hooking into the fear and the negative stuff, or do I want them to be looking into an exciting future that they have a say in that their that their actions matter? And that's really, really all that means. But as, as organizations in official communication, as managers in personal communication and across your leadership teams focusing on that positive narrative can have such a material impact to your workforce. And Future Focus, which when I bring up that point, sometimes get some roles and I'm kind of cool with that. But what I mean by future focus is forward looking. That when we are in this as part of the mindful mindfulness aspect to right or if we're looking back. All the time and engaging with with history, then we're missing now and we're not getting all we can out of the future so that the forward looking hopefulness is important and the belief that you can that your actions matter and that you have a material impact on what is going to happen in the future by virtue of what you do today is a cornerstone absolutely of an energized workforce and a productive workforce too. 


Karlie: [00:17:04] So that's kind of the cornerstones of an energized workforce. But the key challenge that people come to us is once you're already under it and. You're overloaded and you're a little bit disengaged and just experiencing stress, like you're in prolonged stress. Once you're under it, it's not that simple to get out from under it.And so we would encourage you to kind of acknowledge that in your work groups, if it's at play and. Put some effort into first re-engage them and then you can use those techniques for that. On the previous slide for maintaining the energy as as you go through. But I really think the need for reset is, is important and it doesn't doesn't get as much oxygen as I think it should. So how do you re-engage your leadership team? Well. Reset and energized. So that acknowledging that things have been less than ideal for for a while things have been a bit chaotic and uncertain for a while. And now we're just doing a reset and we're moving forward powerfully as an organization, as a group, as individuals. And really just getting that that energy about it. When people believe positive change is around the corner, they they really do engage quite differently with the environment. So things practical things that work with that are things like. So we've done a lot of leadership off science which, you know, one, one, two, three day are off sites where you can just really craft experiences that lift the energy up. The bang for buck you get out of those is is really amazing. So I would encourage something like that you can do team days, you can do something as simple as a morning tea. You just have to be really structured and intentional about what you're doing with the leadership team and how you're actually managing that. It is a reset. This is the line in the sand and we're going to support you into this new, exciting phase. Open communication is also important, particularly with your leadership team, that I think there has been an over communication as as opposed to open communication. So open and purposeful that maybe should say open and purposeful communication is really important and important for getting your leadership team engaged, for them to believe that they have the knowledge and the information around where the company is heading, around what the company is doing and why, and that they have enough to do their jobs, really, and that they're not feeling like secrets are being kept is important involving the leadership team in the planning. That sounds simple and obvious, but you'd be surprised how many organizations we see where it's not the case, where the leadership team aren't involved in the planning. The plan is just given to them once it's once it's ready for implementation. And obviously the buying is a little bit a bit lower. So involving them in the planning to the extent that you can and that they have the skill set for for that is important, asking them what they need. Again, obvious but often overlooked that just simply saying what is it that you need to play all out for for this organization and to be the best leader you can be here? That's not to say you can deliver all of it, but you know. Having the conversation, it's worthwhile equipping them with the skills they need for tomorrow. That's part of the future focus. But it's also capability building and resilience as an organization is to build those skills of your leaders in particular, but not just being reactive about today, forward, pacing it in your strategy and saying, what is it that they need to know tomorrow to deliver that. Focusing on mindset and skills rather than leadership traits we covered a little bit earlier. Be as genuinely flexible as possible. So flexibility is something that historically I think a lot of organizations have kind of paid lip service to you. And there's valid reasons for why. But now the expectation really is that you are genuinely flexible and that that is a two way, a two way conversation and that there's not kind of single right way of doing almost. Anything anymore. And encouraging your teams to innovate. We where we see teams with culture of innovation, we tend to see much higher productivity, much higher engagement, generally speaking, higher performance, and certainly more robust organizations. Just quickly on flexibility that when we talk about flexibility, I'm not I don't necessarily mean I want to work from home on Wednesdays and Fridays. I'm more mean, genuine, genuine flexibility in what roles are and what they're achieving and how they fit in an organization. So not being rigid and fixed in to the extent that it's possible in what you do. So some of the things, if you're trying to adopt a more flexible workplace that we'd encourage you to do is look at roles versus tasks. So historically in organizations, we've talked about paydays and job specs and this is what this project manager does X, Y and Z. And I'm going to measure it with these KPIs, whereas for really flexible workplaces, we'd be encouraging you to actually look at what are the tasks that need to be done and then think a little more creatively around how you might be able to achieve those tasks. Critical appraisal of processes. Anyone who hasn't done some form of process review. So whether it's the full process revitalization or just even a desktop review, you need to be having a look at your processes and whether or not they're still fit for purpose and where the points of friction are, where, you know, there's bottlenecks and roadblocks and pain points and also where there's a laminar flow, where where there's the the wonderful achievements and really adjust them to mean that you are as agile as possible as an organization because that will impact employee experience. Fostering, fostering trust, which is two way. So an employer can't 100% take responsibility for that and nor can an employee. So it's just around structures to build that two way trust and competition versus personal growth. People, individuals generally are wanting to see personal growth in their roles now as well and not just, you know, career advancement. So looking at where the tension between those two things is. And yes where do the individual and business needs meet? That that is what we mean by flexibility is if you can adjust what you're doing to really be at that cross-section of where the individual and the business needs are meeting, you're going to be in much better, much better stead for having the talent you want and also having very effective teams. How do you thrive in uncertainty? So this is, again, a question, a question that we get asked a lot. Because there has been profound, profound uncertainty. And I think that the the market forces are going to mean that a fair amount remains uncertain for the foreseeable future, as there is quite, quite a lot of change. And it will be a continual state. So how would you thrive in that environment? We'd say actively engage with the concept of divergent narrative. So divergent narrative is a shiny term that that's used. That really just means anticipating that there is more than one possible future. So organizations have things like budgets and they have things like forecasts which are very important. But the danger is that they become the single linear future that is anticipated. If you actively engage with the concept of divergent narrative, that means that you are working with your teams and through the organization to be really teasing out what are the possible outcomes. So in New South Wales, where I am at the moment of we're doing a lot of work with people to say. Well, what happens with the election in March? Because that's going to change a lot of things regardless of the outcome. So let's look at what that lever is going to do or may do to the environment so that when we see those different signposts, we're ready. And we've anticipated that that was possible, wher people don't thrive in uncertainties when they're shocked and they haven't considered that the present circumstance is possible. So for example, with COVID, it caught a lot of people off guard because, you know, haven't had a pandemic in Australia in our lifetimes. So it was quite stressful. So divergent narratives are really important and I really encourage you to to bring that to your organizations. Building Resilience. So that's organization wide resilience and the individual resilience as well. So things like GEM values, anchoring agency. So that's the the sense that my actions matter and that I have control of certain things. That's not to say I direct, but I have control of certain things in my environment. Agile processes are also really important, and I mentioned it on the previous slide, but it really is important to look at your processes and whether or not they flex or fight change. So we work with a lot of organizations who when you look at what's really going on, you see that there's a process that's completely inflexible and is whenever there is change, it's actually pushing on the change and trying to make it go away. Whereas what you want is a process that goes, oh, there's change, I'll move. Because it needs to be quick, quick change. And quick response. So that critical appraisal of processes and making sure that that agile with a bit of flex in them is really important. Change management and identification processes and general approach in an organization is also really critical. And I think change identification is probably the biggest area for improvement on this that we see in organizations that change management processes usually kick in once you're seeing the outcome of the change, whereas if you have the active change identification, you can be much more proactiv and therefore it's not going to be as stressful as you go through the change because you're on the on the front foot. So that change management and identification is really critical. And finally, rhyme and reason. And so there is a difference between something being predictable and something being uncertain. So rhyme and reason in this context really just means that people understand cause and effect, that there is cause and effect, and it's not everything's to chance. So, for example, I do good work and I take it to my boss, I'm going to get praise as opposed to if I do good work and I take it to my boss, it depends on their mood. So that rhyme and reason, the things when things are when the environment is uncertain, it becomes so much more important to make the things within your control predictable. A quick poll question for you. So how clear are your teams on how they add value to the organization? One of the key things that that we work with organizations on is getting that that clarity around value add, because so many organizations that we work with, people have their job specs and they have their KPIs, but they're not really clear about what adds value outside of those things, but also how those things add value. Fabulous. Thank you for your answers. I think we'll just do one or two more seconds and then close off. Thank you. Great. So it looks like we've got a bit of a mix, but that's fantastic to see so many of you have extreme clarity on the value in your organizations. Perfect. So high performing teams, high performing teams are really important for keeping a leadership team energized. It's not energizing to be constantly managing underperformance or for just being in an environment that is lackluster and lackluster performance. High performing teams. Really critical. So what what are the areas of high performing teams? We have clear feedback. So a mix of formal and informal, that annual review or whatever that is for you. Has its place and should and should have its structure and its purpose as well. But the informal, clear feedback are really close to the behavior as it occurs in a way that makes sense and can be heard. By the team members is really important if you have the culture for it. Peer feedback is great as well that not just having a manager or a leader give the feedback, peer Feedback can have quite a lot, quite a lot of utility as well, nuanced and tailored performance management. So again, this is where I'd really encourage you to have. Processes that have a bit of flex in them. So you still need the discipline. And they still, you know, need, need governance principles, but having a little bit of flex in them so that you have capacity to engage with an individual where they are and where they are, kind of on the performance spectrum so that you're constantly bettering people and improving and getting better outcomes. Which one size fits all doesn't tend to deliver very well meaningful work in a connected team. So that's where I understand. What's asked of me. So I have a clear directive around what I need to be doing in my role. I also understand how what I'm doing in my role impacts other people, impacts the organisation and connects to those strategic outcomes. So my work is meaningful. I don't think it's pointless if it cannot be boring, but that's also a helpful thing and in a connected team. So even if none of us were in 100% remote but in hybrid where we're not physically with each other as much as we used to be. It becomes much more important to have that sense of connection and team identity. And if we have meaningful work, purposeful work within this community of our team. So that's our our department or the organization? Hopefully both. That is really, really great for getting that performance up in the team context. Reward and recognition is very important. The lower value, regular rewards. If they're monetary, are much more effective than large, infrequent ones. So just remembering that, again, as close to the behavior that you're wanting to reward as possible, but the bigger one that we're seeing a real uplift in as well is the recognition. So that doesn't necessarily need to be like the big high fives and some of some of the showier things that that historically that has meant. But just the habit of saying thank you can go so far in a team or actually just commenting on something that, you know, sometimes when we're busy, it's easy to take for granted of just recognizing where people are performing well, where people are. That discretionary effort, where they're going above and beyond and peer recognition as well. Just really, really. I'm important and can go a long way for your teams. Clear directives on outcomes and not just tasks so high performing teams will really be anchored to that outcome rather than a checklist of I'm going to do X, Y and Z. It's really getting to that outcome. And so having clear directives on what that outcome is, are very, very important. And not just having people with that very narrow view about I'm doing 1 to 3, but I'm achieving this in interconnected teams with interconnected goals so that, structurally that would be like cascading goals, but also gold clusters around that, o that you don't have siloing, you would have the teams of an organization are interconnected as a one big organism and that the goals embed that. How to focus on what matters are linking actions to strategic outcomes. So we've covered that I think in a couple of points. But it really is so important and something that I think is not done terribly well in a lot of organizations. That I as a worker ought to understand how the things I do are delivering the strategy of the organization. And if I understand that, I'm going to engage with the tasks I do quite differently. And it's going to make sure that in time pressured environments, I'm making choices around how I spend my time that forward the organization's game. Clearly illustrating value adding activity. So a lot of you were saying that people are quite clear on how to add value to an organization, which is fantastic. There are I think there's always room for improvement on that and there are a lot of organizations that actually don't do that at all. That actually don't say what is the value adding activity versus all the tasks that you need to do of equal weighting. Then it really. Workers ought to be empowered to understand how they can have the greatest impact with limited time. Being realistic about timelines, I really would push on because we do see a lot of organizations who really aren't being that realistic about how long it is going to take to achiev something and that can be quite demotivating. So really the method we would recommend is a time loaded process map so that you're actually looking at, you know with real data how long something takes so you understand what's reasonable to ask of people and you understand what goals to set and within that map it becomes quite easy to then say, Well, here's the critical activities that add value and here's how long they take. And so, you know, here's where you need to put your focus. And having that realism is just very, very important because just because we want something to take less time is not going to make it so. Realism is important. Beware of overload. Once overload occurs, you know, there's certain things that you need to do. You're going to need to release some of the overload. You'll need to potentially put more resources on or make a call about whether or not all of that work genuinely needs to be done. Once someone is in it, in overload, they fundamentally can't be effective. The quality of the work that they're doing is going to go down. The volume of what they're going to do is going to go down. And so you kind of get in this death spiral. So once the overload occurs, you just need to break that cycle and make some choices or accept compromised outcomes. And building structures for quickly identifying high impact items through change, which is where you have that change identification and change program, that having structure so that it's very quick for you to identify what is going to be high impact, then get that to flow to the workers who need to deliver very really critical in a change environment because you'll as you go through a change program, your key assumptions may actually no longer be true. And so that's where you need to have structures that that make it easier to identify those things. Fabulous. So that brings us to to just about the end of that section. In summary, we would be recommending that you reset with a symbolic fresh start. At this time, I think the new financial year is a great for those of you on the June year is a great time to do that. I think on market it's a great time to do that as well. It can be super simple or you know, the off sites are fantastic, but just a morning tea. And the psychological reset, symbolic fresh start line in the sand going forward is just really important. Maintaining motivation and energy with key structure. So equip your leaders. I would recommend that you equip your leaders with the skills that are going to mean that they can maintain and that motivation and energy. Because when you have a leader who is high energy and highly motivated for what they're doing, you'll see it filter down into your teams. And conversely, if you have a running team. That a Winnie the Pooh reference. So if you have a demotivated, low energy person running a team, you'll see that filtered down through. So if you give them those skills. And we've referenced a few there of the gem principles are values anchoring. So using my values as motivators for me, making my choices and agency, I have control. My control is probably not the right word. My actions have an impact on. My immediate environment. And that is really key for having your your leadership team in good stead to lead, providing meaningful work and a sense of connection. So again. Linking through the outputs that people and their tasks that people are doing so that it actually has meaning in the context of the organization. On that, I probably also with part of your process really have a look at how you're using digital tools because there's so much on market at the moment that you can really. Any of you who were at our convention may or may have seen me talk about using the digital tools for employee experience. Really have a look at that. Because that can really allow people to focus on genuinely value adding things with. There can be some quite, quite low hanging fruit on that side of things and the sense of connection, obviously important of building your community and your tribe and having people have that human connection to the organization and the people or their immediate thing. Agile processes. So again, that that flex for change don't have your your processes fighting change or being in a position to change effective performance management. Really, and not just under performance management. What do you do with the high achievers and make sure that you're engaging them and stretching them and giving them that feedback so that they know what to do more of. Predictable versus certain. So making sure that the things you have control of are predictable for people so that they're better equipped to deal with the uncertainty when it comes up and articulating the value. So making sure that you're being very clear for people about how they can actually add value to the organization and what that really looks like, what behaviors you want to be seeing more of, how their actions matter and what ultimately what what you're playing for. Fabulous. So that's 30 seconds over where I was meant to be, but that's as a percentage. Not too bad. So I'll just jump onto the questions. Thank you all so much for your time, by the way. But I'll just jump into. The questions. The general principles. That's Hugh Van Kahlenberg at the Resilience Project. And Kahlenberg is difficult to spell. So if you type in if you Google the resilience project, he'll come up. Okay. Do we have any questions here? I think that. I think that might be all the questions if nobody else has. I'll just give another minute or two. Sorry. I think that's just a technical thing happening in the background there about whether or not I can see a question. If you have any more particular questions or you want to have a chat about your organization and how some of this stuff might be able to be implemented. Just on LinkedIn Karlie Cremin. I'm more than happy to you know, have a live coffee if we want to be so pre-COVID or happy to do it online. I live and breathe this stuff, so I'm always more than happy to have a conversation. Fabulous. 


Karlie: [00:47:47] Okay. I think we've covered off everything there. Thank you all again so, so much for your time. I know we're all busy people, so I do really appreciate it. I hope there was value in there for you. We have a few webinars coming up if you want to register for those as well. And again, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. And otherwise have a fantastic rest of the day.